1 2 Previous Next 16 Replies Latest reply on Aug 18, 2017 7:40 AM by e.pratt_1639216

    Random Number Generator

    alex.sneed.miller

      Hello,

         

      I'm looking for a random seed to throw into a simple random number generator algorithm, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xorshift 

         

      I was thinking of using the least significant bits of the die temperature (http://www.cypress.com/file/139101/download). Does anyone know if there's a better way to do this, or if Cypress provides some sort of random generator?

         

       

         

      Thanks,

         

      Alex

        • 1. Re: Random Number Generator
          Madhu Lakshmipathy

          Hi,

             

          Yes, it is fine. You can use the Die Temp as the seed to your random number generator.

             

          Regards,

             

          - Madhu Sudhan

          • 2. Re: Random Number Generator
            alex.sneed.miller

            Is the Die Temperature-v2.0 only available to PSoC chips and not PRoC chips?

            There is an example inn the PSoC Creator 4.0 software called 'DieTemp_BasicTest' that just has the DieTemperature component in it, but the component version is 2.0. In my project (using a PRoC) I am only able to use the 1.0 version. 

            • 3. Re: Random Number Generator
              sarangkaith.2582476

              Hi,

                 

              There is no other way of doing this to my knowledge. I don't think that Cypress has any such algorithm for the random generator. The method opted by you is the correct one.

                 

               

                 

              -----------
              Regards,
              Sarang Kaith
              Theappsmiths Reviews

              • 4. Re: Random Number Generator
                e.pratt_1639216

                The basis for RNG is to grab random values from the environment that aren't deterministic in the software; Hence, grabbing the die temp, random noise from RF, etc.

                   

                The die temp is probably the easiest approach. You might be able to get some results from using RSSI() values from the antenna, but I wouldn't bet on its entropy.

                • 5. Re: Random Number Generator
                  alex.sneed.miller

                  Does anyone have any recommendations on the best way to configure the PSoC Components to achieve this? When I was doing it I couldn't get it to vary much.

                  • 6. Re: Random Number Generator
                    user_1377889

                    As you probably know already:

                       

                    The random number generators deliver a random number sequence. This sequence repeats after its period which depends on the width the generator uses. But the sequence is always the same, only the starting point is chosen with the seed value.

                       

                    Best way to get a random value will be to measure noise. There are a couple of sources for that, diode voltages, resistors, transistors... each of those deliver a noisy signal which you can measure using an ADC with high resolution. The noise will play in the lower bits only, thus the variation is not too much. The resolution for the die temperature measure is something like 7 to 8 bits only, that is not much. Another idea could be to use the ILO frequency which has a tremendous variation of up to 60%, but I didn't test that for repeating values.

                       

                     

                       

                    Bob

                    • 7. Re: Random Number Generator
                      e.pratt_1639216

                      If you want something unique to each module, you could use some mathematical transformation upon the bluetooth address generated for the unit. Ideally, you would mix that with some noise like @Bob mentioned.

                         

                      Since the die temp doesn't vary much, it will take longer/more samples to achieve the same entropy as other methods. If you only use the lowest bit or two, and then append them together, you can achieve larger random numbers from the die temp without needing more hardware/changes. Unfortunately, you will need more time to ensure the bits don't cross-correlate, but still doable if it's a one-time seed.

                         

                      Ex (pseudo code):

                         

                      uint16 seed = 0xAA;

                         

                      for i = 0 to 15

                         
                          

                      uint8 sample = ReadDieTemp()

                          

                      if sample % 2

                          

                              seed = (seed << 1) & 1

                          

                      else

                          

                              seed = seed << 1

                          

                      end if

                         
                         

                      end for

                         

                      //You should now have 16 bits of random bits from the dietemp

                         

                      //Will take more/less time depending on the number of bits that are random for each sample read that you can use "safely"

                      • 8. Re: Random Number Generator
                        alex.sneed.miller

                        I was thinking of reading the least significant 2 bits from the die temp multiple times in a row, however each time I read the die temp the least significant bits are still the same or very similar. 

                           

                        Here is an example of the different values I'm getting (see below for the code)

                           

                         channel A: 000005A9 , mVolts: 725 die temp in C: 20
                         channel A: 000005A8 , mVolts: 724 die temp in C: 20
                         channel A: 000005A9 , mVolts: 725 die temp in C: 20
                         channel A: 000005A8 , mVolts: 724 die temp in C: 20
                         channel A: 000005A9 , mVolts: 725 die temp in C: 20
                         channel A: 000005A9 , mVolts: 725 die temp in C: 20

                           



                        here is an image of how I have it configured in my top design: https://snag.gy/bWRIZe.jpg

                           

                        In my code I start the scan and enable the interrupt, in my ISR I clear the interrupt flag and set a variable from 0 to 1. In my main.c for(;;) loop I check if that variable is a 1 or a 0. If the variable is a 1 I print out the values and then set the variable to 0 and start the scan again:

                           

                         

                           

                          for(;;) {
                            if (adc_data_ready) {  // if result is TRUE, then ADC convertion is finished
                                    adc_data_ready = 0;
                              DBG_PRINT_TEXT("\r\n channel A: "); DBG_PRINT_HEX(ADC_GetResult16(0));
                              DBG_PRINT_TEXT(", mVolts: "); DBG_PRINT_DEC(ADC_CountsTo_mVolts(0, ADC_GetResult16(0)));
                              DBG_PRINT_TEXT(" die temp in C: "); DBG_PRINT_DEC(DieTemp_1_CountsTo_Celsius(ADC_GetResult16(0)));
                              ADC_Start();  // starts the ADC component, but does not start an actual ADC scan
                              ADC_IRQ_Enable();  // enable ADC interrupts
                              ADC_StartConvert();  // starts an ADC scan

                           

                        } // end if adc_data_ready

                           

                        }// end for(;;)

                           

                         

                           

                         

                           

                        And here is my ISR code:

                           

                         

                           

                        CY_ISR (ADC_ISR) {
                          uint32 intr_status = ADC_SAR_INTR_MASKED_REG;

                           

                          if((intr_status & ADC_EOS_MASK) != 0u) {
                            adc_data_ready = 1;
                            //ADC_SAR_INTR_REG |= ADC_EOS_MASK;  // this clears just the EOS mask
                            ADC_SAR_INTR_REG = intr_status;  // this clears all interrupt flags
                          }
                        }

                        • 9. Re: Random Number Generator
                          e.pratt_1639216

                          Yeah, I agree with your approach. I would also go with grabbing only the lowest bit/two and combining them to form larger random values. 

                             

                          For example:

                             

                          int bitcount = 0

                             

                          int randomvalue = 0

                             

                          //run the following when getting a new ADC read

                             

                          if bitcount < 32

                             

                               randomvalue ^= adc_bit << bitcount     //^ is the bit XOR operation, << is the bit shift operation

                             

                              bitcount += 1     //increment bitcount so that it circles over the randomvalue variable

                             

                          else

                             

                               bitcount = 0

                             

                          endif

                             

                           

                             

                          //randomvalue should hold a changing/randomizing value

                             

                          //grabbing it some random number of iterations of the ADC should yield more or less random values depending on how long you wait between interations.

                             

                          Edit: If you want some way to test how random the values are, you can do an arithmetic mean on the randomvalues coming out; The average of all of the values generated from it should be visibly different values with an average around 50% 1's and 50% 0's.

                          • 10. Re: Random Number Generator
                            alex.sneed.miller

                            The ADC/DieTemp component configuration I have right now often doesn't provide any randomness. Most of the time when I run my code the output value stays exactly the same. The output that I copied/pasted earlier was some of the best random outputs I was able to find while looking through my console output. 

                               

                            Do you have any suggestions on how to configure it differently to measure more noise?

                            • 11. Re: Random Number Generator
                              e.pratt_1639216

                              Hmmmmm; Besides increasing the sensitivity of the ADC from the dietemp, I'm not sure there is much else you can do to increase the temperature fluctuations of the chip. Some other options might be to read ADC values off of some input pins that are floating, and see what kind of arbitrary values you can get from it.

                                 

                              Another option would be to implement a simple timer, and then pull values from the timer at events/based on some other signalling. This has the fallacy that any timing-correlation between the events to read the timer will result in very similar times pulled from the timer, but is relatively simple and doesn't require external hardware.

                                 

                              Another option, if you are processing data (SPI, I2C, BLE, etc) Any communications data you receive will contain some varying data; For example, reading an arbitrary byte from a SPI bus as it communicates would give values distributed based on the average SPI bus values.

                              • 12. Re: Random Number Generator
                                user_1377889

                                Depending on the usage of your random seed there are some other practical ways:

                                   

                                When you just need different seeds for each of your devices you can use the unique device ID which is a 64 bit value.

                                   

                                When you need the seed after a connection has been made a good value would be the number of µs it took to establish the connection.

                                   

                                When you maintain an RTC on your board the unix time would be a good value.

                                   

                                Otherwise a good approach is to measure a noisy analog signal (e.pratt: do not use a floating pin, that may cause other dangerous trouble).

                                   

                                An ADC with a resolution of 12 bits will provide you with a 800µV resolution which will not be sufficient to isolate noise from a diode or transistor.

                                   

                                When your device has got an accelerometer or a digital compass the source for random data is easy.

                                   

                                A question: What do you want to do with the random number sequence after the generator was started with your seed??

                                   

                                 

                                   

                                Bob

                                • 13. Re: Random Number Generator
                                  e.pratt_1639216

                                  Yeah, reading from a floating pin can have unintended things happen :(

                                     

                                  But essentially, just reading from a different noise source than the die temp.

                                     

                                  It might vary between chipsets, but I've been able to use the ADC on a floating pin to get random values, although that was on a microchip and not a cypress chipset.

                                  • 14. Re: Random Number Generator
                                    alex.sneed.miller

                                    I want to create a random number to use as a private authorization token that the phone would read and use in subsequent connections. Although now that I think about it....I don't think there is a risk in having the phone generate a random number and send that to my BLE device. Although, if I needed two BLE devices to talk to each other using a token without a phone I don't know if that would ever work.  

                                       

                                    This random variable would be used to seed the random number and generate new random numbers, which could also be mixed with the seed to create a new seed to make it even harder to track.

                                       

                                    I was thinking that the device ID might be good, but isn't that just determined from the MAC Address? 

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